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53 Responses

  1. Al says:

    Thanks Michael!

    I’m still grinding away in that battle. I will finish it to the end.

    I’ve spent 10’s of thousands of dollars, countless hours and hours and I will win in some measure, in fact I win by never giving up and continuing to speak the truth about that situation as I know it.

    Telling that the “Plaintiff” seems to be hiding key witnesses from cross-examination under oath and is not cooperating in Discovery. I thought he wanted the truth to come out? No?

  2. Al says:

    Bob’s Calvary Chapel franchise, according to a recent defection (Bob’s in-laws of 10 years and his daughter-in-law of Bob Jr. is now gonzo and not “drinking the kool-aid” anymore) is down to 100 attendees per week.

    They report he is crazier than ever and that it’s all coming down on him. Team Bob puts up a good facade and fake front, but I know the truth and so do they.

    God’s discipline and judgment is squarely on Bob and his fake “ministry” and Bob Cult.

    My faith was severely tested b/c I needed to see God’s principles upheld and his justice upheld. God’s timing wasn’t my own. I got mad at God, but no longer. I will do what I believe I’m to do and I will trust God to do as he wishes in terms of timing and what and how he chooses to mete out his Justice.

  3. c2p says:

    The whole CCV thing blows my mind but doesn’t suprise me. I got the vibe and bailed pretty quickly.

  4. Al says:

    Calvary Chapel as an org/denom is such a shame. I saw Bill Holdridge on a conservative political thread today railing against Hillary Clinton and her cover-ups and corruption and lack of Justice in our political system…..and I pointed out to Holdridge that his Calvary Chapel System does no different.


  5. Xenia says:

    Bill Holdridge is my old CC pastor and at one time, a very good friend. He’s a good guy.

  6. Jean says:

    Great line up Michael.

    There is more to the Gospel than the forgiveness of Sins…

    “People have been glad to have the forgiveness but not so much into the miracle of Divine fellowship. This is the only way we can explain the stratospheric number of “decisions” made to receive Jesus with little movement of the needle on a transformed nation and world.”

    … the miracle of Divine fellowship? What is that?

    … the stratospheric number of “decisions” made to receive Jesus? Perhaps the problem is in the decisions.

    … little movement of the needle on a transformed nation and world? The Bible has placed that in Revelation 21, and, uh, it’s a new heaven and new earth, not a transformation. I’m not finding the transformation commission in the Bible. Someone help me out.

  7. Xenia says:

    I did not leave CC because of him or anything he did. He was very gracious towards me when I left CC.

  8. Michael says:

    Thank, Jean.

    Hopefully we have a cross section of thought that is helpful…

  9. Em ... again says:

    so far – whatever the outcome – Al is the winner over his step-dad – IMHO … why is repentance so hard? if this pastor could face himself and his “shortcomings” (to be polite), he could finish his race with integrity

    polite abusers and 10 things we shouldn’t say… for some reason annoy me today (old age?) – yes, there is abuse all over the place, but there are also dominant personalities and conflicts that are difficult and wearying, but why is everything called abuse these days…
    and as to those 10 cliches… overused and misused? perhaps, but most are true… maybe a better take would be that it isn’t necessary always to say something? am i listening to my advice? 🙂

    thanks for the reading list for the day – again – may the blessings redound

  10. Jean says:

    Sermons on biblical sexuality illegal in Iowa?

    As an Iowan, I have an immediate interest in this issue. I see it as a very serious indication of the many modes and methods that the LGBT community is using to force acceptance of their agenda on those who don’t agree with in on religious grounds. Between the LGBT community, who have aggressive lobbying tactics, and the bodies of secular citizens and nominal Christians, who go with the flow, religious liberty in the narrow sense of freedom worship and of theology itself is under attack. This is very troubling.

  11. Xenia says:

    A year ago or so, when there was rumors that sermons against homosexuality would be considered hate speech, our archbishop came to our parish and in his sermon, in very measured tones, he repeated three times: “Homosexuality is a sin.” He didn’t elaborate and of course he knows that it’s not the only sin in the book. It was a signal to us that he was not going to fold to the liberal agenda.

  12. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Which part of “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” does Iowa not understand?

    It could be any state – in CA we have our own issues with Christian Universities right now — but they are probably not covered under this..

  13. Mr Jesperson says:

    Let me add a couple of links: this one is about how increasingly partisan our country has become over the last 52 years. I think it speaks clearly about the increasing outrage expressed by Americans aimed at the “other political party.”
    The other link is a link about Evolution and Creationism. There are some very good critiques of the piece in the comment section as well:

  14. Jean says:


    In the language in the article, where the Iowa Civil Rights Commission is defining what is not a “bona fide religious purpose”, there is this: “a church service open to the public”. The article does not define this clause further, so we don’t know what the intent is. But, if it were read broadly, the concern is that it would include regular weekly worship services, which are open to the public. That would appear to be unconstitutional. However, even if it is, the very fact that this rule was drawn up and will not have to be litigated is an abomination.

  15. Jean says:

    A correction of a typo in #14: last sentence: “However, even if it is, the very fact that this rule was drawn up and will now have to be litigated is an abomination.”

  16. JD says:

    Move along, nothing to see here, ie: no scripture, no prayer. Father, help us to pray for those and what concerns you today.

  17. London says:

    When I was hanging out with the folks at we church, the pastor regularly told folks he’d give them their money back if they decided Thuringia wasn’t the right thing to do.
    Also had a season of telling folks that he didn’t want them to tithe, but instead take that same money, find their own way of pouring it out into the community through a project, inviting neighbors over, donation to a ministry etc.
    of course, there wasn’t a building or staff to find, but I found it liberating.

  18. JD says:

    By the way, I’m referring to the Ravi Zacharias link.

  19. London says:

    Spiritual covering article is excellent.

  20. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jean – I know you are the attorney and I am not – however, if we counted “no law” on our fingers – how many laws could they pass? 🙂

  21. Jean says:

    MLD, you’re right; you aren’t one. 🙂

  22. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    This is why the pastor must put the homosexual stuff in his prayer and not the sermon – the prayer is strictly a religious function 😉

    But what would happen if the pastor just taught “let’s review what the Bible says” and does so with out comment.
    This would be like the disclaimer the radio shows do when they say the views and opinions of this broadcast may not represent the views of this radio station.

  23. Lurkie Loo says:

    So sad that BG is using your kiddos and you for his image, in my opinion, by changing his bio to four kids and four grandkids.

    Looks like they found Paul! Per a video on the church’s Facebook, he was at CCV on stage this past Sunday as they prayed for BG, who is currently in the Middle East on a short-term missions trip. Paul didn’t speak, but was introduced as their “third son”. The guy introducing them said twice that BG’s three boys called before he left and wanted to let them know how proud they were and how much they loved him.

    And in a creepy moment, Gayle said, “I love you and can’t imagine life without you, but if you go to heaven before me I will dig you up and get you again.”

  24. London says:

    This is an interesting take on spiritual discipline as well.

  25. Al says:

    Lurkie, we saw that vid. They know exactly where Paul is and won’t cooperate in Discovery so we can get him served and cross-examined under oath now that he gave a not-under-oath statement (supposedly) recanting his original allegations that he reported to many many in media, a police detective in Idaho, a child abuse lawyer/advocate, Dave Rolph, Chuck Smith and many many others over the years both publicly and privately. Then one of the plaintiffs shows up after 10 or 11 years of shunning him and starts buying him stuff and helps him get an apartment he can’t afford according to another of my brothers. You can’t make this stuff up, it’s that stinky and bizarre.

    Robert Jr. is reportedly being harbored by Lance Cook of CC La Habra (a close CC pastor cohort of BG’s who allegedly has been involved with big money scandals himself according to Jay Wright a former CC pastor and board member and others).

    Robert Jr. alleges he was “molested” by Paul and the two had a several years incestuous homosexual relationship pastor Bob’s home. Sick stuff. We think it is connected to Paul’s molestation allegations and we want both under oath and cross-examined, but the Plaintiffs do not. Very telling IMO.

    More people are being deposed today and tomorrow as I do the heavy lifting of reverse-prosectuing this matter and spending 10’s of thousands of dollars and countless hours etc. I do it with joy and I do it gladly b/c I believe it is right and that God told me to do it. It isn’t glamorous and rewarding like being a millionaire for Jesus and being a worshipped for Jesus like the Bob Coy’s and Greg Laurie’s and Raul Ries’s and Franklin Graham’s, but I wouldn’t take money to do what those guy say they do “for Jesus” as that is not “serving” anyone other than themselves.

    If the Jesus is real…and he is…it’s not about what big parts of Calvary Chapel are doing and exampling. They are fake phonies. The real stuff is gritty. It costs YOU and not others. You don’t get rich and famous and worshipped for it.

    Many are doing much more and much better, including Michael. I do my part in a very messy manner, I’m sure God has wanted to thump me on the head many times (and he has LOL), but the good part is I never give up, I’m a grinder and I do speak up when I’m prompted to (though imperfectly most of the time LOL).

  26. JD says:

    With regards to prayer being protected, let’s not forget why Daniel was thrown into the lions den. But that would never happen here, right?

  27. Al says:

    Lurkie, ya, that’s weird that Bob suddenly posts that he has 4 sons and grandkids he never acknowledged. He didn’t for many years. Why now? Must be some angle that his lawyers told him benefits him in some manner for the lawsuit. Bob always has an angle.

  28. Al says:

    I will straightforwardly state that I have zero respect for Calvary Chapel as an organization. They rail against a Hillary Clinton or Obama for their corruption and injustice etc (and rightfully so)…yet the Calvary Chapel System is no better.

    Calvary Chapel pastors protect their own. If Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama were Calvary Chapel pastors….you would not see a Bill Holdridge make a very critical public statement about them.

  29. Al says:

    Michael, wow, what a fascinating link.

    I am in that Camp. There is truth to Empiricism, Science, Mental Illness….and there is truth to spirituality and possibly even real supernatural phenomena.

    The truth always tends to lie in between extremes.

  30. Al says:

    Whatever “demon possession” means…it is real in some sense…whether it is a guy high on PCP who has superhuman strength or a dude on bath salts that eats someone’s face off.

    There are “mentally ill”…and there are “spirits” which the bible seems to label similarly to drugs. The Shamans used hallucinogens (and the CIA has studied this) to open up the “spiritual world”.

    Not sure what “demons” are….but I think there is something to demonic possession in some context. I’ve seen BG’s eyes go wild as if he was possessed by something and the rage was so inhuman and barbaric and primal. Something abnormal was going on, you could sense it and feel it. It was frightening.

  31. Michael says:

    I know about demons…and they are real.

  32. Al says:

    “I know about demons…and they are real.”

    I think so, in a sense.

    They are not physical entities though, correct? Something spiritual or metaphysical.

    The bible describes them as “bodiless” spirits correct?

    I think they are likely a reality of our Universe/Multiverse with chemical/biological tracers which is how the hardcore drugs can open the spiritual realm and let the demons in (if you will).

    The example of the man on PCP with superhuman strength….the chemicals somehow affect both the physical and metaphysical in humans and open a door (metaphor) to the spiritual world. Dunno. You certainly see this in ancient cultures and even in today’s Shamanism.

  33. Al says:

    And, Michael, you seem to believe (and I think you are right) that the narco drug biz has a special sort of evil surrounding it….demons and drugs connection?

  34. Dallas says:

    On the church that is trying to out victims who are minors…

    The reasoning seems to stem from the family leading a negative publicity campaign against the church… I had a story recently come to my attention where a church that was ministering in the same neighborhood as a church plant I was involved with, had their pastor convicted of molesting a young girl over a stretch of 3 years. The church launched back in June of 2010, this all came to light about 6-8 months later… I never heard a word about it until about two months ago. I contacted my former pastor, and though he had seen the same news story, he hadn’t heard anything about it prior to then either.

    Seems like a case where someone leading a campaign to let people know what was going on in their community might have helped.

    Btw the statement that my former pastor does recall from that church was telling us “not to steal their kids”.

  35. Michael says:

    I’ll stick with the biblical explanation of “fallen angels”.
    All I know is that they are powerful and influential.
    Learned that the hard way again…

  36. Lutheran says:

    I was interested to see what Jean, as a former (I’m assuming) Methodist, would say about the point of view of the guy who wrote the Seedbeds article.

    I think the guy was being unnecessarily provocative. My understanding is that John Wesley was big on JBFTG until the end.

    The problem is, if you say forgiveness of sins is just a door to everything else…well, the ‘everything else’ sooner or later takes prominence.

    I think CS Lewis said something similar — the problem with Christian feminism is that soon the feminism swallows up the ‘Christian.’

  37. Jean says:


    One of the things that bothered me about the article (“There’s Much More to the Gospel Than the Forgiveness of Sins”) is the implication that the forgiveness of sins is not such a big deal. That the forgiveness of sins (and by reference – Christ’s death on the cross) is just a launch pad (or entry point) to some sort of victorious life or life transformation (as B. Graham preached) or even the transformation of the world, as the article states.

    When if the forgiveness of sins is the main thing? Jesus told us in the prayer he left us to pray for our daily bread. In John, Jesus said that apart from him we can do nothing. He is both the life and the resurrection. Therefore, our justification, the forgiveness of sins, must be the main thing, the Good News, because by our justification we are adopted sons of God and entitled to pray in Christ’s name.

    Systematic Theologian, Francis Pieper, wrote: “Indeed, justification by faith represents the climax in man’s earthly life, inasmuch as man in this life can reach no higher status.” I agree with this statement.

    To be forgiven, to have my sins imputed to Christ, and His righteousness imputed to me, as poor sinful being, what more could I achieve or ask for?

  38. Al says:

    “I’ll stick with the biblical explanation of “fallen angels”.”

    OK, I’m sure you have a Doctrine of Fallen Angels. Can you drop some knowledge on me from Packer? 🙂 (seriously, not joking, not being snarky)

  39. JoelG says:

    What does JBFTG stand for?

    I’m not sure what the author means by suggesting there’s more to the Gospel than forgiveness sins, unless he’s talking about living out Gods Kingdom by “following” Jesus in all the details of our lives. This seems biblical to me. We always fall short, though. That’s why the Gospel starts and ends with the cross and resurrection of Jesus. There’s a tension there, resolved only by Gods forgiveness through Jesus.

  40. Xenia says:

    In Orthodoxy, the purpose of salvation is union with God.

  41. Michael says:

    “Demon,” or “devil” as earlier translations rendered the words, is the Greek daimon and daimonion, the regular terms in the Gospels for the spiritual beings, corrupt and hostile to both God and man, whom Jesus exorcised from their victims in large numbers during his earthly ministry. The demons were fallen angels, deathless creatures serving Satan (Jesus equated Beelzebub, their reputed prince, with Satan: Matt. 12:24-29). Having joined Satan’s rebellion, they were cast out of heaven to await final judgment (2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6). Their minds are permanently set to oppose God, goodness, truth, the kingdom of Christ, and the welfare of human beings, and they have real if limited power and freedom of movement, though in Calvin’s picturesque phrase they drag their chains wherever they go and can never hope to overcome God.

    The level and intensity of demonic manifestations in people during Christ’s ministry was unique, having no parallel in Old Testament times or since; it was doubtless part of Satan’s desperate battle for his kingdom against Christ’s attack on it (Matt. 12:29). Demons were revealed as having knowledge and strength (Mark 1:24; 9:17-27). They inflicted, or at least exploited, physical and mental maladies (Mark 5:1-15; 9:17-18; Luke 11:14). They recognized and feared Christ, to whose authority they were subject (Mark 1:25; 3:11-12; 9:25), though by his own confession it was only through effort in prayer that he was able to expel them (Mark 9:29).

    Christ authorized and equipped the Twelve and the seventy to exorcise in his name (i.e., by his power—Luke 9:1; 10:17), and the ministry of exorcism continues still as an occasional pastoral necessity. The sixteenth-century Lutheran church abolished exorcism, believing that Christ’s victory over Satan had suppressed demonic invasion forever, but this was premature.

    Satan’s army of demons uses subtler strategies also, namely, deception and discouragement in many forms. Opposing these is the essence of spiritual warfare (Eph. 6:10-18). Though demons can give trouble of many kinds to regenerate persons in whom the Holy Spirit dwells, they cannot finally thwart God’s purpose of saving his elect any more than they can finally avoid their own eternal torment. As the devil is God’s devil (that is Luther’s phrase), so the demons are God’s demons, defeated enemies (Col. 2:15) whose limited power is prolonged only for the advancement of God’s glory as his people contend with them.

    Source: Packer, J. I. Concise Theology: A Guide to Historic Christian Beliefs. Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House, 1993.

  42. Al says:

    Thanks Michael, pretty much in line with what I knew of demonology from the bible. Good concise reminders, much appreciated.

    I think hardcore drugs open people up to demonic influence. Seems to be the case empirically through observing Shamanism and drug addicts and the work the CIA has done on the subject etc.

  43. Al says:

    BG was a hardcore drug addict and drug dealer. I think he opened some doors that cannot be closed and have been in him for quite awhile.

  44. Al says:

    Wenatchee, that’s the business reality of these situations.

    I faced it in my battle.

    People are often Lions behind keyboards…and the bad guys really are bad guys….but when push comes to shove and it costs people money….they run for the hills.

    It’s a sad commentary on “us” as humans…but very predictable.

    I’m just a rare rare rare breed. I’ve been called “crazy” by enemies and opposition etc, but the only really crazy thing about me is that I will die on the hill and spend every dime I have and fight to the death if I believe it is a right battle.

    The reason the child abuse cases were fully prosecuted is b/c the lawyers could get paid out by the rich organizations like the Catholic Church, the Mormons and the Boy Scouts. Is what it is.

    Money, money, money on all sides. The Church and its “ministers” will only “serve Jesus!” if they get paid….and lawyers will only fight righteous battles…if they can get paid.

    Driscoll is a jerk, no doubt. But he’s got lawyers and more money than his opponents are willing to part with.

    I guess his opponents don’t care as much about his wrongdoings as they professed. Not when push comes to shove and it costs them.

    That’s the troof.

  45. Lutheran says:


    Justification by Grace Through Faith

  46. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    Al, the fundraising jargon that comes to mind is “donor fatigue”. During the period that fundraising was being taken up for the cause a slew of other fundraisers for former staffers were going on simultaneously.

    Grassroots fundraisers are … to put it indelicately, not always very shrewd about when and how to organize fundraising activities to maximal effect. Just a slightly educated guess, having spent a decade in non-profit development and fundraising support, it seems most likely there was major donor fatigue after all the personal aid projects and people didn’t donate to the cause of the suit–throw in the 1 Cor 6 stuff and it would be even less likely.

    Had the potential donor base not been so diffused through the various other fundraisers the target might have been reached.

  47. Al says:

    Wenatchee, good points, I think you’re right.

  48. SeattleObserver says:

    Al, if you read the recent responsive documents filed, one of the main plaintiffs was going to tap into his retirement savings to fund the legal fees and costs. But the attorney was not willing to let him do that. The Good Guys, for sure.

  49. Al says:

    SeattleObserver, thank you for sharing that. I get too cynical sometimes. Wow, good on both of them.

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