How To Dump Your Wife and Keep Your “Ministry”

And yet many people take them seriously……..
Truly evil and devious!

Where were the men in his life to tell him he was being an idiot?

Rachel and Nadia should be ashamed , but I feel the same way about the CC folks doing conferences with another guy in their tribe. His ex wife and kids have suffered too.

“Love suffers long…”

All I can say is “I am shocked.”

Sarcasm off.

Love the juxtaposition of this story with the gentleman you remind us to pray for every Wednesday.

Hmmmmmmmmm, I wonder which one is really a man of Gawd?

I also realize every denomination has this problem, but can we be shocked he is emergent, yes I went there. When God can be anything and always changing and open, I am not surprised Jones did this.

Lastly, let me guess, new woman is 10-20 years younger, with no kids, and sorry to say, a nympho.

This clown needs to reread the Sermon on the Mount regarding adultery in one’s heart. So should his adulteress wife.

And this group wonders why no one takes them seriously, but a handful of people.

Check your dates. I think the affair started in 2008, divorce final in 2009, marriage officiated after that. But I could be wrong myself.

Other than that- I think it is a big stretch to blame this on “emergent” theology when we see the same thing across all spectrums of xtianity, or really any power positions, secular or sacred. I think we can only blame it on the fact that people want what they want and the unscrupulous use mental games to justify it to themselves and others.

“First, complain bitterly to all in your inner circle that your wife is not “spiritual” enough for a man of God like yourself.

Second, assert that because she’s not “spiritual” enough, she can’t possibly be “supportive” of you and of the wonderful ministry God gave you.”

A few years ago I first felt a certain calling on my life, and I thought I knew what looked like. My wife was not particularly supportive, and it was a source of tension between us” I have to admit that my mind went to that script above.

Looking back on it, man am I glad that my wife was there to temper me. I made tons of assumptions that probably would have put me in a pretty bad place today, had I followed them.

Thank the Lord for crazy stubborn wives… sometimes. 🙂

I actually agree that we should end our participation in state marriages … for opposite reasons…

but I do not think we should marry people where there is no legal protection for the victims of those who break covenant.

So get married in court and then before the LORD

Tony is just about sexification of life…

Let him reap his harvest in peace

Michael and Annie I was not writing that this only happens in emergent circles. Don’t get me wrong, I have seen it as well, in many circles of Christianity.

I was just pointing out I am not chocked by this coming from someone like him.

Now, if you had a story about MacArthur or Billy Graham or the Pope, yes the Pope, doing this, my shocked meter might move a little bit more.

I have to say this anonymously because I know Tony personally and am known in certain circles where I can’t be tied to these comments. But this is interesting. I have been in the same room with Jones a dozen or so times over the last decade. We sparred on a few blogs. I always found him to be passionate about theology and the church, even though he and I were on very different pages. But I had a few “behind the scenes” interactions with Jones while within a small group of shared friends/acquaintances. You know that sense you have that something isn’t right? I left these more personal interactions feeling uneasy. I sensed that the guy he publicly portrayed himself to be was very different from who he was. Sadly, none of these revelations is a surprise in a way. I hate to see someone with such influence using their voice for such harm. But such is the way with many Christian “personalities.” Sad.

He is emphatically disqualified and should have stepped down.

One cannot tell others to obey the Lord if one refuses to do so himself.

If Tony Jones were a reformed fundamentalist, RHE would be calling him to the carpet, not joining hands with him doing a conference.

Crazy sad… God have mercy on those kids.

Mike @ 30 – Well put!

Xenia- nope nope nope. All you’re saying is to ignore harm done. Ignoring it leaves his ex still vulnerable to the story he puts out there, and to continued abuse and harassment from him.

That attitude reads as a gigantic SHUT UP to about who has ever had a story if harm to tell.

That’s Hi Annie, not Hik Annie.

Hik to you too! I’m new, admitted. And a tad grumpy about this sitch. Thanks for the patience to clarify to a grumpy stranger.

dswoager, you have a good point.

This shows the problem with celebrity ministries.

If my pastor dumped his wife and took up with someone else, he’d be fired by his bishop and that would be the end of it, as far has his ability to negatively influence our parish (and any other parish) goes.

But with these authors/ internet celebs/ conference speakers who are a law unto themselves, I guess people (mostly people who are unknown to them personally) have to be warned.

But as far as future conferences, teaching posts, books, web sites, speaking engagements…. all the stuff that made him well known in his circle, he should be ignored.

This, folks, is why we should not follow leaders of parachurch ministeries and should give our time and effort to our local church instead.

Michael, I have seen people on both sides say they have seen documentation that proves the case of the one they believe. Have you seen any documentation?

Some folks need to remember that mental illness falls under the “in sickness and in health” part of the vow they made before the Lord God Almighty

Michael,

You know my situation. What you have written is a well-worn pattern among those who first undermine their wife integrity and character, while carrying on with one or more women to some degree, directly or indirectly. As he gains support, he becomes more emboldened and his abusive choices becomes worse, but most of the time, not to lead into physical abuse that leaves marks, etc. And when there are witnesses, he plays the all caring and attentive husband again, but flips the switch as soon as they are out of sight. When the abuse becomes so bad and after finding out that his philandering has not ceased and that the abuse is meant to cause the wife to want to divorce him, she may attempt to get additional support and help to hold him to an account. Only thing is, she doesn’t realize that all the while she was crying and pleading with him, he was making her out to be unstable.

Telling the truth does not make person crazy. However, having your life threatened on numerous occasions while being silenced and thrown under the bus, because you are doing everything possible to help your husband to repent, get treatment, and to set straight the lies he has told, while trying to bully her into a divorce, thus being able to say, “what could I do–I did everything possible to get her the help she needed as she has had long term mental health issues (yes, it is projection on his part), but she just wouldn’t submit.” And if she refuses to file, he will and if the court refuses his petition, then what some will and have done is simply commit fraud by filing in another state or country, then enter into a bigamist marriage.

While the wife remains in hiding because she know that more than anything else he would like to see her disappear. She tries to warn his pastor and others, but they only see what he is showing them. No one talks to her, because the pastor made it clear that, he is “a good judge of character.” Yet she remains faithful to her vows, speaking the truth, being cautious and ever on the alert for danger, wondering how in the world the church can be so blind and so uncaring towards those of us who have suffered so.

Thank you, Michael for speaking on this.

Steve Wright @ 52 is absolutely right. “My wife is crazy” does not negate the marriage vows. Probably isn’t true either.

Michael @ 51 – I think that is wise.

“Hypothetically, if a wife is suffering from mental illness, it increases a mans responsibility to his wife and children.”

Most people who have any type of mental illness are not insane. Saying, because unless a person is insane, the spouse cannot put their spouse away. For whatever reason, these guys think they can drive their wives batty, then ask the state to take them off their hand. I think it also serves to gain sympathy among those who may question his motives for divorcing her, since he doesn’t have legal or biblical grounds to do so. It secures his reputation (false image) while garnering the attention they also thrived upon.

That card will be played, when in fact, the only thing wrong with the wife is that she is being utterly and completely traumatized over and over and over again. She very well many develop a good case of Acute Distress or even PTSD, along with a myriad of medical issues. Marital counseling is the worse thing for this person to agree to participate in, particularly because he is not being genuine and is only using the therapist to come up with some type of diagnosis to legitimize the divorce. At the same time he will fight tooth and nail from paying child support and spousal support. In my case, one moment he was saying I have the potential of earning a good living while at the same time claiming that I was “crazy.”

I know my thyroid completely shut down which then affected my heart to develop cardiomyopathy (broken heart syndrome—similar to what Jesus is said to have experienced to the point of rupturing. These things are steadily improving, thank God.

What people see is this put together guy vs. this extremely emotionally distraught woman who may also be homeless and unable to work due to being so traumatized.

She has told the truth but he uses it to plan his moves while also putting a whole other spin on it. He may even get on her about not working, but she tells him, she has an interview with so and so, but then she calls the prospective employer to confirm and finds out they are no longer interested in interviewing her. When this happens several times in a row–one has to wonder if he has sabotaged her to keep her broke and to end up becoming homeless. But in everyone else eyes, he is the golden child, the god fearing man who did everything to try to reconcile with her. This is only the tip of the iceberg.

In my case, I wasn’t permitted to attend church with him and when I did he made sure that I saw him checking out the young girls so I that I would be discouraged from going with him again. Can you imagine what it is like for a woman to be exposed to this while trying to come together with her husband with taking communion. One time, I excuse myself, trying very hard not to run out of the service, but to get to the restroom, where I would collapse on the floor while upchucking in the toilet.

So, no one at his church knows me, including his pastor. I used to stay home and listen to the sermon, heart broken and ripped apart. Of course, he would be there in our home in the evening, acting as if nothing was wrong. I have been in hiding for over 7 years to one degree or another. I don’t even have an address. Since August 2010, total hiding per counsel received after being severely threatened by him. His pastor knows this—but ignores it. Yes, he is in the inner circle and would like very much to be a pastor. Very mission involved at this time and taken the classes to enable him to become a pastor. You would like him—most people do. I know because who his pastor and others think he is about are the same reasons I accept his proposal for marriage.

I shared enough I think: just wanted to bare witness to others that what Michael is saying totally true and to make it more real by sharing what I have experienced and witnessed as well, first and secondhand.

A Sister and a Wife in the Lord deserves so much better.

Well, the bible does condone and endorse and example multiple wives and concubines in the Old Testament with great men of God like Gideon, King David, Solomon and others as examples.

Also interesting that David’s great sin that he was confronted with by the prophet Nathan was not all of David’s many wives and concubines…but that he took another man’s wife.

Hard to ignore that biblical example…so something in the bible either changed, God changed or it’s still OK.

There is nothing new under the sun.

Remember this “fastest growing church in the ‘least churched’ city in America?

[Pastor] Barnett told his congregation that he was taken “in Spirit” to heaven, where he sang with angels and experienced “oneness of being” with Christ. Following this, he instituted “dancing before the Lord,” which was a free-form, individual dance with spiritual implications. In 1985, however, this evolved into a highly controversial, intimate two-person dancing practice known as “spiritual connections.”

During church services, members were instructed to find a dance partner, known as a “connection.” By staring into each other’s eyes, a process known as connecting, partners were told they would in actuality be seeing Jesus in each other’s eyes, and were encouraged to look with love into their spiritual connection’s eyes in order to express their love to Jesus. Throughout the week, both in and out of church, members were encouraged to spend time with their spiritual connections in a kind of “quasi-dating relationship.” Physical intimacy often accompanied these “spiritual” connections, and connection love was taught to be more intense, and more desirable, than marital love. A former member has stated that the connecting experience was so intense that she and other women would experience orgasms without ever having any physical contact with their connections.

It was taught that God was using the “spiritual connections” to break down the barriers and inhibitions within the congregation, and promote greater “unity” within the church. Spouses that felt jealousy watching were taught to “release their mates unto the Lord,” and Pastor Barnett taught from the pulpit that members were not to view the connections “carnally.” According to Barnett, what the people were doing (which included hugging, holding, fondling, kissing) was not to be viewed with the eyes of the “flesh.” As he explained, “What’s happening is they’re having spiritual union … It just looks the same on the outside, but what’s really occurring is spiritual, so don’t judge them or their motives.” In the book Churches That Abuse, a former member described what it was like at church services that included such sessions of dancing:

“Picture your typical forty-year-old wife who’s out of shape and has six children. There she is watching her husband dancing with this little twenty, year-old , long blonde hair, in his arms, gazing at her for hours. And meanwhile the wife is going insane.”

The practice often led to marital friction.

Ya think?

The O.T. told the people that the king was to have only one wife. Long before he lusted and then bedded Bathsheba, he has a problem with women.

As for God condoning it, I don’t think so, but he permitted it among the people. Good point though, Alex about Nathan only addressing David taking another man’s wife. He may not have addressed all the rest, but he and his family certainly did suffer the consequences.

Solomon ran off the driven or blessed path for taking all the wives that he did.

As did the tribes of Israel when intermarrying with pagans or being with more than one wife: see Malachi, chapter 1-3.

Abraham slept with Sarah’s handmaid, and suffered the consequences for doing so–as did the people to this day.

Not to mention those who have already shot themselves in the foot and now years later, looking back, realize what an ass thy were.

Many things draw one away from one’s marital commitment.

Beauty, youth, handsomeness, excitement, fained spirituality, money.

But in the end, not so wonderful was the choice they made.

Proverbs 5:18-23

Let your fountain be blessed,
And rejoice in the wife of your youth.

As a loving hind and a graceful doe,
Let her breasts satisfy you at all times;
Be exhilarated always with her love.

For why should you, my son, be exhilarated with an adulteress
And embrace the bosom of a foreigner?

For the ways of a man are before the eyes of the LORD,
And He watches all his paths.

His own iniquities will capture the wicked,
And he will be held with the cords of his sin.

He will die for lack of instruction,
And in the greatness of his folly he will go astray.

Steve jobs widow is dating a man who has left three children and a wife for someone with 6 billion $$$.

But even then it is still folly.

No amount of money can ever erase the wounds or the related pain we leave behind when we stray from the reservation.

There are many who have gone that route and now have come to the realization that what they had done was indeed wrong.

They are who this thread is showing strong feelings against.

While focus is on those who get victimized, there are those who have come around full circle and know that they have done wrong, but can have no voice in this thread, for the shame and condemnation that their actions brought upon their own heads.

I want to say to them that our loving father, our God, is the God of second chances.

Yes you were like a bull headed in your chosen direction, not listening to the wise counsel of your brethren who attempted to bring sanity to you as you went your own way willfully.

Now that you have come to the realization that what you did was indeed wrong, you do not have to dwell forever in shame or condemnation.

That is not the will of God for you!

Be washed under the cleansing flood of the blood of the Lamb of God.

Be restored, released and renewed in Jesus holy name.

Be forgiven and restored through the hope that Christ brings to even the vilest of sinners.

Short of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, you can be forgiven and restored by the God of second chances.

Humble yourself before the Lord and He will lift you up.

He is the lifter of our heads.

We are faulty, leaky vessels in need of a Savior.

1 John 1:7 (AMP)

7 But if we [really] are living and walking in the Light, as He [Himself] is in the Light, we have [true, unbroken] fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses (removes) us from all sin and guilt [keeps us cleansed from sin in all its forms and manifestations].

Create in Me a Clean Heart, O God

Psalm 51:1-3

1For the choir director. A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.

Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness; According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.

2Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity And cleanse me from my sin.

3For I know my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me.…

Acts 13:22 says,

“After removing Saul, he made David their king.

He testified concerning him:

‘I have found David son of Jesse a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.‘”

Even though David took another man’s wife sexually, he recognized his sin and repented.

We see the God of second chances calling this adulterer a “man after my own heart.”

So take hope dear one, you are not condemned if you repent.

God is certainly not looking for perfect people, since there are none.

He is searching for men and women like you and me, mere people made up of flesh.

When you do wrong, you admit it and come to terms with it.

I forgive you for what you have done!

And I certainly know that the God of second chances does also.

He loves you so much and has not abandoned you.

He loves you!

From what ive read else where. He claims to be a Calvinist. So he doesnt think he is sin.

Joe,

You should know better then to mess with someone’s golden calf 🙂

“She said, “Here is my maid Bilhah, go in to her that she may bear on my knees, that through her I too may have children.” So she gave him her maid Bilhah as a wife, and Jacob went in to her. Bilhah conceived and bore Jacob a son. Then Rachel said, “God has vindicated me, and has indeed heard my voice and has given me a son.” Therefore she named him Dan”

“When Leah saw that she had stopped bearing, she took her maid Zilpah and gave her to Jacob as a wife.”

“‘I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added to you many more things like these!” (God gave Saul’s wives and concubines to David, or so the bible says)

“The sons of Keturah, Abraham’s concubine, whom she bore, were Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah. And the sons of Jokshan were Sheba and Dedan”

“Ephah, Caleb’s concubine, bore Haran, Moza and Gazez; and Haran became the father of Gazez. The sons of Jahdai were Regem, Jotham, Geshan, Pelet, Ephah and Shaaph. Maacah, Caleb’s concubine, bore Sheber and Tirhanah.”

“The sons of Manasseh were Asriel, whom his Aramean concubine bore; she bore Machir the father of Gilead”

“When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion”

I can sure feel the gift of the Love of Christ flowing from you tnight 🙂

E. You started it then call M out on love? Hey plank, meet speck.

Linda Pappas, I am so sorry for your troubles. They sound similar in nature. Thank you for getting it. From my experience I can only say it is spiritual warfare and the enemy has plucked Tony for his purposes. I still do pray for him and that he will be broken and repent but I am not holding my breath.

Alex – Gospel 101 – Jesus straightens you out.

“And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they TWO shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” – Mark 10:2-9

David and Solomon were disobedient to the Law-

““When you come to the land which the LORD your God is giving you, and possess it and dwell in it, and say, ‘I will set a king over me like all the nations that are around me,’ you shall surely set a king over you whom the LORD your God chooses; one from among your brethren you shall set as king over you; you may not set a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. But he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, for the LORD has said to you, ‘You shall not return that way again.’ Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself.” Dt 17:14-17

So Alex – if you were considering polygamy – think again!

Michael, but the prophet did not call it sin in the OT, why not?

Why does the command in the OT in several places give permission via the “law from God” that multiple wives and sex slaves was not only permitted but encouraged?

Were those words from the prophet not spoken on behalf of God himself? Who gave the law? Men or God?

It can be easy to underestimate how primary preservation of family lines and the related preservation of inherited land rights was to the laws regarding marriage in the OT. Take the incest taboos. The levirate marriage custom was obviously the exception to that taboo. Why? Because preserving the family line trumped the otherwise normative incest prohibition. Multiple wives would have tended to derive from the same precept, and rabbis have proposed that if a husband and wife had not produced heirs within the first ten years of the marriage the husband could choose to take a second wife so that heirs could be born. Note that when Sarah has Abraham dispatch a servant to get a wife for Isaac it’s from kin, Sarah didn’t want Isaac marrying some local woman. Preservation of the family line.

Joseph married a pagan priest’s daughter, Hosea a hooker who left him, Job wasn’t a hero to his wife. The Bible is raw and real and perfect.

Great contribution, Hatchet

My wife was married to five different men…all of the me.

Can’t remember who said that.

Them

David’s “adultery” was Bathsheba…another man’s wife…what was not rebuked by Nathan as adultery…but rather Nathan reminded David of all the wives and concubines God gave to him….was the fact David had many wives, many children…

I don’t recall ever saying multiple wives was necessarily a sin. Multiple wives were condemned in Deuteronomy 16-18 with reference to the king, and the reason was that too many wives would lead a king to form alliances with other nations and risk worshiping other gods. It’s worth noting that “too many” never got defined but would have been a responsibility of the people at large (at least according to Frank Crusemann’s interpretation, last I read it). The multiple wives in itself would not necessarily be considered sinful but it could be considered a significance risk indicating poor character in men of wealth and power. Did the guy take an extra wife to ensure an heir to the family resources? Well, okay … that’s acceptable. Did the guy take an extra wife to prove he has the hottest harem in the region? That’s not good.

In the case of David it seems worth mentioning that David had begun besieging an Ammonite city of the sort that, according to the Torah, Israelites were not to lay siege to. In contrast to the earlier campaigns described in the books of Samuel, the siege David took up before he took Uriah’s wife was one that, however understandable it may have been in an ancient setting, was not about the welfare of the people as a whole but the honor and reputation of David as a king and a warrior. Once David made a decision as king that was about his glory and reputation rather than the welfare of the community things went downhill and never improved. It wasn’t that David was a better father or husband than Saul (far from it) it’s that he was considered to have a more responsible approach to how to get and use power compared to Saul.

So multiple wives aren’t necessarily a sin BUT whether they’d be considered acceptable would depend on who’s taking how many wives for what reason. The case by case nature of the assessment becomes a little easier to appreciate if you keep the primary idea in mind that preserving the family line was crucial. If a guy amassed dozens of wives he’d risk having to divide up the estate so many ways he’d be diluting the resources of his children and that could be considered poor parenting. Even if it wasn’t considered “sin” it could still be considered folly to have more wives than were needed to secure the family estate.

W said, “The case by case nature of the assessment becomes a little easier to appreciate if you keep the primary idea in mind that preserving the family line was crucial. ”

No, that is not a compelling argument and there is no biblical support for that rationale other than you appealing to cultural context.

David did not need any more wives to keep his family line going…he had many wives, many kids when Nathan confronted him for the “great sin” of adultery. Not only was David’s polygamy and concubinery not sin…it was not necessary to preserve David’s lineage.

When you can find the part in Deuteronomy that explains how many wives is too many for a king, Alex, let me know.

You’re seeming kind of slow on the uptake tonight. I pointed out that the prohibitions against multiple wives are conditional and tend to only apply to people like kings.

Julie @ 86. Glad to see that you are here, and that your voice was allowed.

Linda @58: Your story had me shaking my head in incredible sadness. Thank you for telling your story here, as well.

Hugs to you both…. simply hugs.

Michael:

On 27 February 2007, Tony Jones mentions that “….Courtney blogs” and provides a link to the blog.

Link: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2007/02/27/finally/

This small statement says so little, but implies so much… clearly, a relationship of some nature has begun between Tony Jones and Courtney Perry. Not a business relationship, and not a professional theological relationship… but rather a relationship statement that leaves the reader wondering.

The link given by Tony Jones did take me to Courtney Perry’s website. Courtney was the mistress, then spiritual wife, then later second wife for Tony Jones.

Feel free to take your own pic of the Tony Jones blog for your files.

Michael: I suggest you update the opening statement of your blog to include this disclosure by Tony Jones.

Michael:

On 14 July 2011, Tony Jones posts that he ‘got married yesterday’ (that is, on 13 July 2011). This is the ‘sacramental marriage’.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2011/07/14/i-got-married-yesterday/

As before, feel free to take your own pic of the Tony Jones blog for your files.

May I also suggest you update the opening statement of your blog to include this disclosure by Tony Jones.

Michael:

On 14 May 2013, Tony Jones announces his plans to get married in August 2013 (see very last paragraph). This would be a legal marriage. I am unable to find the date of the legal marriage.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2013/05/14/on-the-right-side-of-history-on-gay-marriage/

As before, feel free to take your own pic of the Tony Jones blog for your files.

May I also suggest you update the opening statement of your blog to include this disclosure by Tony Jones.

Jesus did say that marriage was between one man and one woman. Anything outside of this sexually is forbidden.

““Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?”

He never mentioned homosexuality as this statement alone covers what does and does not constitute a marriage. It was only due to the hardening of men’s heart that Moses did not follow through with what God had already set forth. God allowed it given the need for women to be under the protection of a man’s tent and to secure the Jewish women from being ravaged and worse by others not of their tribes.

Although Nathan did not address David’s philandering clearly having multiple wives has devastating consequences which led David to lusting, bedding, and killing Uriah, in spite of his faithfulness to David and his army. David did not take any more wives, nor produce any children after he lost his infant son, repented and then having to deal with his entire household being turned upside down seeing his daughter raped, his son kill another son, and then being virtually run out of the his own kingdom for a time by another son. Those things were a consequence of David’s wayward heart. Yet God knew David’s heart, thus knowing David would be brought to his knees and heart being genuinely repentant. Had Uriah lived, then what? God had a greater plan in mind and used the sins of others to teach us the value of walking in obedience to Him and what happens when we do not, while moving forward in His plan towards ushering in the only One that could save any of us and cause our hearts to be changed to want to follow Him instead of satisfying the fleshly desires and wantonness of the world and its ungodly practices.

Personally, I think Tony Jones is wrong. It doesn’t feel right (though not much feels right about 3/4 of the bible) and I feel sorry for his first wife.

Most likely the issue for him ditching his old wife and taking a new one was sexual..just as the reason Moses gave to all of Israel when they conquered other peoples. Feels wrong, I know, which is why I warn against basing Morality on the jot-and-tittle of the bible.

Our current Morality is based on Conscience and Reason and Consensus, not the letter of the bible.

From the lineage of Joseph’s two sons came Gideon and Joshua.

And where is it a sin for a woman to have multiple husbands? What’s good for the gander, is ok for the goose.

Sister said, ” that TWO become one – He did not say THREE become one.”

That is fallacy of arguing from ignorance.

The two became one in the Old Testament as well. David was one with all his wives and they with him.

David and wife #1 became one flesh together, then David and wife #2 became one flesh together and so on.

Sister said, “And where is it a sin for a woman to have multiple husbands? What’s good for the gander, is ok for the goose.”

Women didn’t have the same rights as men in the bible. It is a Patriarchal construct and very male oriented. In fact, women had very few rights in the OT and a little more in the NT…as the bible seemed to evolve a bit with the Jewish Culture.

Now you’re just forgetting your own arguments.

W, I took the comment to be your assertion that the reason God permitted multiple wives and concubines was to protect lineage…which is more than a bit odd…and I don’t see that reason for multiple wives and concubines expressed in the bible.

The reason seems to be largely for the sexual pleasure of the male…in David’s case Nathan refers to it “God gave you a bunch of women already, you have no excuse for taking Bathsheba” and then again in Deuteronomy “if the woman is good looking to you, you can make her your wife/concubine”

Linda, it says some of those things you state, which is typical of the contradictory nature of the bible.

“He told us that marriage was intended to be between one man and one woman.”

^ It doesn’t say that. It alludes to it in some spots, but is very specific in the OT that it’s OK to have more than one wife.

I don’t care to argue it any longer, the bible verses are what they are and I’ve laid out a very basic rationale for my position but don’t don’t want to take over the blog.

The reality appears to be that it’s not so cut and dry as with many things in the bible. It says and examples one thing, then alludes to some other things with the only specificity of “husband of one wife” being in the context of church leadership in the NT.

Paul had his own thing, saying you shouldn’t marry…that that was “best”.

OT = Marry as many as you want

NT = Don’t marry, but if you do and want to be in leadership…just one wife please.

Linda, Paul the Apostle says it’s best to “not” get married…but that if you can’t keep it in your pants that you should marry.

If that’s not marrying for sex, then what is?

Deuteronomy

21

10 When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

Alex, @ 144.

No, it is not. It is saying that rather than to use sex inappropriately it is far better find a wife who you are able to love, protect, and honor, so that your joy would be fulfilled and that you are not held under a burden that would prevent you from being able to honor, love, and to serve me. If you take all the scriptures concerning the relationship between a man and a woman, as one in Him–then you would know that sex would be a by-product of being able to share and to express to one another and only to one a level of intimacy and blessings that you cannot have by merely treating marriage as the cost of one must pay in order to get sex. In other words sex is not a vehicle to use another person as a human masturbatory tool or as an object or some piece of clay to work into your own selfish self-seeking pleasure.

Basically we are told in scripture that there is a time and purpose to develop this level of intimacy with another person. It’s called marriage and the act of sexual communion has to do with the oneness that exemplifies the same heart that Jesus has towards his bride, the church. Society has made it so much less and far more destructive. Sexual addiction is rampant in the church and throughout the world. But this is why God gave the desire to be in relationship with others. Unfortunately, we have used sex as a means to fill that void without having to vest our hearts to the one whom God has designed to be our spouse for life.

Why anyone would want MORE than one wife is beyond me….

One woman is all a dude can handle.

Even Solomon came to understand this.

Anyway, I’m not presenting a case for polygamy…

Only finding fascination and comfort in the story of the Patriarchs and such…

Through it all….

Jesus is the Answer.

“as HE should have as her husband.

The one woman man approach of 1Tim3:2 NT should be the standard for shepherds if we are going to follow the early Church model. Also if Christ gives Nathans and Samuels in our personal life and ministry today by all means embrace them and the counsel they give, as they will help us from repeating the same mistakes David and Solomon made.

If a man doesn’t have Nathans or Samuels in his personal life and ministry presently this would be a great petition to ask The Lord. Peace

This article sounds similar to the the Dinesh D’souza affair a couple of years ago. If I recall my ex CC pastor even invited him back to speak at his church after the scandal blows over. What a scam.

A few things come to mind –

1. Given the nature of the OP, I’m not sure how the discussion of multiple wives began. Jones didn’t say that he wanted this woman AND that woman. He said that he wanted this woman and NOT that woman. His plan wasn’t to multiply, but to subtract and add (or add and subtract, depending on perspective).

2. There are plenty of descriptions of men who had multiple wives in the Bible. Yet description is not prescription. The prescription for marriage is found in the early chapters of Genesis and affirmed by Jesus and Paul. In discussing divorce, Jesus said that Moses allowed it due to hardness of heart – but it was not so from the beginning. Jesus draws His theology from the beginning prescription and does not draw normative conclusions from narrative descriptions. That God allows departure from the prescription is an unremarkable comment. That we would make normative the descriptive passages over the prescriptive texts is the remarkable thing.

3. Something that hasn’t been commented upon (I think) is that w multiple wives, the new wife may replace an older wife in the husband’s affections and attention, yet the previous wife/wives are still cared and provided for. No doubt, even conjugal visits would still be in order. But Jones, in adding one wife had to subtract the other. He stood (I assume) before God and gathered witnesses and pledged covenant love to the wife of his youth. He then proceeded to betray, reject, and eject her. I don’t know that David promised Michal that there would be no others, but I’m sure Jones promised that to his bride. Broken promises lead to broken people.

4. When I read the OP, I thought of King Henry VIII. “My wife isn’t fertile enough for me. I want fruit that she is not bearing. I must get rid of her.” He jumped through a bunch of spiritual mumbo-jumbo- loops, too.

Well well,

And God created man in his own image so man returned the favor and created god in his own image.

Marketplace religion the new true idolatry

I still do not understand why people wring their hands over this. I said this when we discussed it on the other thread earlier in the week.

“Tony Jones is not a Christian and his organization is not a Christian organization.” They can be categorized as any of the other 1,000s of organizations, groupings, religions – Christianity is just not one of them

Don’t tell me I cannot judge in this matter. I have already taken the log out of my own eye in this area, so I can. Please join me.:-)

Marriages end, get over it. People get divorced – more often than not it involves someone else, not always as a cause but often as a result of a marriage not working.

Why pick on this man rather than any others? For someone to call him ‘sick’ and ‘evil’ is so completely over the top. Nobody’s perfect, not even his wife I suspect.

Judge not.

Tiggy writes: Marriages end, get over it…Why pick on this man rather than any others?

I’m sure the OP was written about Jones because he is a significant leader in one stream of the church and sets the tone for his movement and serves as an example of Christlikeness in his movement. He was singled out because, in many ways, he has singled himself out as someone who should be listened to in spiritual things. He is a public figure.

Marriages end, get over.
This isn’t about marriages ending – I think you’ve missed the intent of the OP by a good country mile. It’s about betrayal and lies and intentional disobedience of a well known Christian leader in light of covenantal responsibilities both to spouse and church.

Marriages end, get over it.
Christian leaders treat their wives despicably, commit adultery openly, seek justification for it through spiritual mumbo-jumbo and betray and abandon the wife of their youth. Christian leaders set a unChristlike attitude before the very people they are to lead into Christilikeness. These leaders sin against God and spouse and church and go on like nothing has happened.

Is that what I’m supposed to get over? One of the diseases in the church is that we do, unfortunately, get over it.

Note on 165 link:

David Guzik is incorrect in his notation that 68 brothers were murdered. Scripture states that Abimelech killed 70 brothers. How can this be when scripture also tells us that Gideon had 70 sons. Simple, the 70 had been born prior to Abimelech and Jothan.

Abimelech would have had a on long wait to be in first place to succeed his father.
Multiple wives and concubines create problems for the children, if anything, as Watnachee shared in his comments. Such sorrow and lack of remorse is the pinhead that will bring any house down upon itself.

Marriages do not fail, they are torn asunder by pure unadulterated sin left to its own devices.

Marriages do not fail, they are torn asunder by pure unadulterated sin left to its own devices.

Linda, I 100% agree!

Tiggy

“Nobody’s perfect, not even his wife I suspect.”

Committing adultery and leveling the playing field by saying no one is perfect is a typical way of justifying a horrendous sin. Also remember, although we say sin of adultery. Adultery involves far more than this. For instance according to the data presented his wife discovered the affair in 2008. Now, the timeline for affairs to take off begins far before there is a physical or even an emotional attachment. All the lies, the hurtful things said and the withdrawal of his affection, along with the time spent in pulling the wool over her eyes, as well as, others, along with belittling or engaging himself in causing others to support him in his endeavors, then turning their backs on her, along with leading or co-leading this new flame of his into co-conspiring to violate his marital vows, the marriage, his wife, and the body of Christ—-can hardly be dismissed by saying:

No one’s perfect–get over it, and don’t judge. WE make a huge error when we treat sin so flippantly and with such glibness, then expect others to join us in this ruse or attack them for standing up and speaking the truth and say this is wrong and this is why, and you need to repent and make right as much as possible the harm you have brought upon this person or persons—Including the person you decided to pull into your scheme to defraud your spouse.

@ 147 Wenatchee:

I’ve been meaning to get back to you on this just to say I think that is one of the best comment I have read on this topic.

It’s a keeper—may I tuck it away in my file that I keep to use privately as I take strength and consider life upon that highway which I travel?

Well spoke – Tim Brown!! – #166

I wish to offer that I ok with human failure. I had my own marriage struggles. Bonnie and I separated twice. Reconciled twice. It was incredibly difficult. We stayed together despite my diagnosis of PTSD and GID (Gender Identity Dysphoria). We celebrated 39 years together last summer.

Bonnie learned to love someone with certified mental disorder – that is, me.

I own my strikeouts. I own my humanness.

It has disturbed me is that Tony Jones has not owned his ‘Sacramental Marriage’ doctrine as heresy. He has not apologized for the doctrine. He has not owned his part of the divorce or openly admitted to his years-long affair.

However, I am totally and deeply saddened and horrified that Tony Jones is, in essence, inviting many well-known WOMEN Speakers/Authors to a ‘Why Christianity’ conference under his banner of the JoPa Group.

One such speaker is Rachel Held Evans. Another is Nadia. And the list goes on….

Tony Jones’ control of the battlefield is soooo good, that Rachel Held Evans hid every contrary comment, every pleading for her not to attend, and every scriptural disagreement from her FB page. Hid them. Like they no longer matter. Like they no longer have a voice that can touch her heart.

Suddenly, Rachel is no longer just implying her consent of the Sacramental Marriage heresy, but she is additionally ‘walking on the other side’, avoiding the wounded, and once again demonstrating by example that Christianity cannot hear the incoherent voices of the one that is ‘half-dead’ and abandoned by the system.

In my opinion, Tony Jones’ heresy may be just a cover that allowed him to justify his affair and live-in female partner.

But now, in my opinion, we are watching true ego-power ignoring the Word of God, and becoming the controlling gravity of a cultic movement, and the unspoken horror that says: “Move away from the wounded, and erase their words, because our leader and our mission outweigh anything else.”

This is what I perceive: Women leaders and female Christian authors silencing Christian women that wish to speak of their abuse… they say, in essence, the Church is not a place for your voice or healing… go away.

This is what I perceive: A male leader that is out of control and answers to no one…. that says in essence that women can and should have no legal rights via marriage, so long as a ‘christian’ minister performs the ‘sacramental’ ceremony.

This is my only hope: That the invited Female leaders and authors openly and publically state they will NOT attend nor speak at the ‘Why Christian’ Conference, due to the ‘Sacramental Marriage’ heresy.. and then, open their hearts and blogs once again to the moans of the sisters that have been left ‘half-dead’ on the side of the road.

Why not honor God’s way more than the way of a man?

“Suddenly, Rachel is no longer just implying her consent of the Sacramental Marriage heresy, but she is additionally ‘walking on the other side’, avoiding the wounded, and once again demonstrating by example that Christianity cannot hear the incoherent voices of the one that is ‘half-dead’ and abandoned by the system.”

Boom! There it is!

This accurately describes the central problem with celebrity driven Christianity. Many (not all) who attain some type of status, and it doesn’t always have to be on a national or international scale, lose the sense of hearing the heart’s cry of the least of these. There status is elevated to a place where what is seemingly important is something other than giving the cup of cold water o those in need. They become emotionally, mentally, and spiritually detached from the very Christian religion that they claim to make known.

Ready to blow my story outta the water? HAHA. j/k

Hi Erunner,

All is well!! Been a long journey to health physically, mentally, and spiritually, but I’m finally on the other side! 8 years later…

Hope all is well with you!! I remember you, Michael, Dusty, Babs, and a few more..you were all so instrumental in my healing, you’ll never know!

Hello Shannon,

These boys have kept things lively

I posted this comment on a friend’s repost, and I thought I should post it here as well:

“I’ve always thought Tony Jones was a giant ass from the first time I met him, but this Michael Newham is just as big an ass. I’ve known the person he reduces to a “new toy” as a friend from before the Tony Jones days. (I’ve never understood what she saw in him, but people make their own choices.) She’s bright, talented, and generous.”

I understand the deeply embedded patriarchal attitude that allows men like Michael to casually reduce women to objects, but it doesn’t make him less an ass.

Bob, I think what Derek K. is saying is that the new girl friend is “bright, talented, and generous.” In my mind, that would not release her from the instruction “What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. so that they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate. So that they are no more twain, but one flesh.”

My personal belief is that life is difficult and I don’t want to judge someone else since I never know all the facts and the old saying about walking a mile in their shoes applies.

However, there is a sanctity to marriage that any party should recognize and respect.

Again, I don’t know the facts even vaguely, but I would not find the “other women” blameless. Those that know more of the situation might have a different view.

Derek K., perhaps you could explain your view in more detail and help us understand. Was there an affair while Tony Jones was still married? Is the lady you refer to the one who had the affair with him? Did she know he was married? Seems like those are the essential questions if we are understand her actions.

Mr Koehl,

Clearly there is no shortage … judging by the braying

Ben,

I take it that you are not a Christian. And why would you want to be when observing what those who say they are, behave as they are not.

I am not going to hand off any type of excuses such as “no one is perfect,” or that “everyone sins, but is forgiven if they believe in Jesus.”

But what I can say and that I hope that you would consider, that when we judge God by the actions of others, we tend to think that God is like humans. Thus if humans behave the way they do while claiming to be a Christian, it is really difficult to see the tree from the forest. People will also chalk God as being a mythological figure that people use for multiple reasons which I am certain you can provide a never ending list to reinforce this.

However, as one who is a Christian and life, mind, and heart who has been changed, just know that not all who claims to be Christian are just giving lip service, but have in fact come to a place in our lives that convince us that God is as real and as personal and as loving and caring as one care be and in this, we do claim Jesus as our Savior and our Lord.

From my heart to yours, thanks for sharing. I am so sorry that what you have seen or witnessed does not bear this out in reality for you.

I should never try to defend Michael. He’s quite capable of his own defense. And in a lot less words that I used.

Derek,

I gave some thought towards your desire to defend your friend, while trying to put myself in your place. What I see is that you are only viewing these thing from a perspective in the manner that you have been treated by this person, thus the good qualities that you see within them outshines any negative things that you have other people report or shared. Therefore, wanting to defend them, you pick up your banner and come to her defense.

However, to be a really good friend to her, don’t you think that it would be far more advantageous to determine if in fact what is being reported is true. And if it is (not saying that it’s not) then, then what? How can you being a good friend to this person join her in the deception and the violation being and have been committed against the wife (biblical) whom she knew for many years now that the man she involved herself was already married. Thus, no matter what reasons he gave to justify his adulteress choices, it did not justify her own choice of buying into this and thus, by a sacred and holy covenant made before the Lord, also abused this woman while robbing her of those affections/honor/protection that are strictly provided/sanctified within the Holy Union between this wife and her husband.

How is it that you as her friend can justify yourself to your friend to enable her to think for a moment that her union with another person’s husband is legitimate. Wouldn’t it be better to counsel her to leave this man so that he could get right with his wife. Yes, she could file for an annulment. As if the marriage never took place in the place. Look it up. Then she could go to the real wife and do what is necessary to reconcile with her as well as to vindicate her. Heck, she could work with this wife to cause him to be held to an account by those in the church to enable him to do what he needs to do to enable himself to develop an understanding of the depth and breadth of what he had done, not just to her, but to you and those he has misled by distorting God’s word to scheme and to justify abandoning and abusing his wife. In turn, healing and reconciliation could take place. Of course, your fried would also need to grieve and get her own counseling, but at least she would have a clear conscious and be able walk away and seek out a man that does not already have a wife. Maybe you, if you are available.

After this, the both of you could also add to those qualities, that of being honorable, which is a character trait that is far more important than what you have suggested.

I leave you with the following:

Proverbs 27:6

Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

Linda Pappas, I am truly appreciating your input on this thread. Thank you for joining us. Welcome also, to Julie Anne and Julie McMahon. Excellent company.

Thankfully, our hope is the ultimate righteous justice and judgment of God in such matters, when we shall know as we are known and all things done in darkness shall be revealed in The Light…. We may never see justice in this life.

While terrible injustice and sorrow is perpetrated in situations as the one discussed (and dissected) here, focusing on the perpetrators and the injustice only delays healing, IMO.

I love that saying “Stop looking backwards. We’re not going that way.” Keeping eyes, heart and mind on Jesus, the ‘slow and certain light’….. is the way to move forward, find hope and cling to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.

Read Matthew 23 last night….Quite an extensive diatribe by our Lord on phoney, externally religious and abusive leaders. Nothing new under the sun.

Derek,

You are not going to spin Michael like that. No sir.

Something ltxian said last night;
“This accurately describes the central problem with celebrity driven Christianity.”

This should be a first indicator that someone like Tony Jones (fill in the blank for any ‘celebrity church worker) cannot – as in it is impossible, be a Christian.

Christianity is about humble invisibility. Doing for your neighbor and not for yourself.

Linda– I haven’t been around much lately– came to this blog 8 or 9 years ago. You’ll find this to be a place to find your voice and to heal. It’s important that those along the healing continuum are able and willing to share. You help those who are just behind you in the process. Paige, your perspective gives hope to those who have survived to know that they can thrive. Blessings to you ladies :).

Derek said, “I understand the deeply embedded patriarchal attitude that allows men like Michael to casually reduce women to objects, but it doesn’t make him less an ass”

Wow. If Derek was so concerned about ‘patriarchal attitude’ that ‘casually reduce women to objects’ he would be more concerned about Tony Jones’ treatment of his friend and ex wife.

Is it just me or does religious hypocrisy from liberals look even more idiotic than from the fundamentalists?

For the sake of fairness, we should probably at least take a look at this “Statement By Tony Jones Regarding Allegations of Abuse” http://goo.gl/fb/PBpVPc

“doesn’t mean she WASN’T injured…” above.

What about John Hagee? He did this, too, (around 1975) and is now revered and has a HUGE following. Was there true repentance when he started another church on the very next Mother’s Day after he admitted immorality to the congregation and divorces his wife, mother of their two children?

Wow.. This sounds EXACTLY like how my pastor husband got rid of me and his kids.. To the letter.. He must have followed this guy’s ministry model.. Amazing